Krishnamurti and Chogyam Trungpa “What is Meditation”?

by on 10. Apr, 2010 in general

Part 2 of a series of 5..
In which Krishnamurti attempts to draw out Trungpa..but ends up being somewhat badgering.
An odd exchange.

19 Responses to “Krishnamurti and Chogyam Trungpa “What is Meditation”?”

  1. jacob 10. Apr, 2010 at 9:26 am #

    it’s funny, i’ve been listening to an 18 part series (each an hour long) of interviews between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan Anderson recorded for PBS in ’74, and while those talks are as far from combative as can be, you do get the sense of KM being well on the cantankerous side. i’ve come to like his edge though, it keeps the train on the tracks in a sense.

    also interesting… Anderson allows the talks to evolve naturally, wherein Krishnamurti controls the when and how they come to each subject. though i haven’t gotten to the end yet, i find some significance in the fact that it takes nearly 16 hrs of discussion before the topic of ‘meditation’ can be arrived at. how else would you get there?

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  2. bb 10. Apr, 2010 at 3:30 pm #

    Trunpa’s wife wrote in her book (about her experience as his wife) that he said Krishnamurti had that ‘edge’ because he never found his teacher.
    (paraphrase)To experience the love/tenderness/acceptance … of a true teacher is very special -to say the least.

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  3. Dr.Robert 11. Apr, 2010 at 9:07 am #

    K’s edge ,as such, came about I think as a result of 70 years worth of trying to communicate something that intrinsically is not only beyond words,but is actually subverted by the nature,memory ,and prejudice of language.
    A tough row to hoe, and yes he could get quite biting in his frustration over peoples repeated inability, or unwilliness, to make the effort to engage in open ended”Dialogue” while discussing issues of critical importance.
    As he said in the “beginning” (1928), “Truth Is a Pathless Land”.

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  4. J.W. Billings 11. Apr, 2010 at 10:51 am #

    Some say KM broke through intellectually which is very very difficult to do and very hard to teach. Trungpa with meditation practice and direct experience.
    All Trungpa has to do is sit there and all Km does is act like an ass hole with his words and intellect. Trungpa went way beyond intellect. It’s like reading a story about surfing or actually getting in the water.

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  5. bb 11. Apr, 2010 at 11:04 am #

    I respectfully disagree. All ‘teachers’ of this sort have this very issue which is ‘the’ issue for them; Getting the experience across.

    I can think of only him, of the some what, many people with true understanding as having this quality in so much of what I have read/heard in his teachings(I had never experienced him in person, unfortunately).

    It seems so much of his teachings were a reaction or tainted by what the Theosophists did to him. His constant attacks on so much of society, I am not saying I disagree or he was misguided or there is no value in pointing out a spade for a spade. But why so much time and energy spent on spiritual vulgarities that come and go naturally.

    But for me, he presents himself as alone, playing with words in contrast to Trunpa who seems to dance from the heart. In the video he never seems to harmonize with Trunpa. He leads but does not embrace what the ‘other’ has to offer.
    Anyway the beauty of the universe manifests in all ways for it’s self and he was one of the few sparkly and brilliant gems we have had.

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  6. JWBillings 11. Apr, 2010 at 11:25 am #

    BB, What specifically do you disagree with. I’m getting old and my perhaps I’m not thinking as well as I should be.

    What did the Theosophists do and to whom?

    Is Krishna really leading or is that the way you see it.

    I remember reading an interview with Pema Chodrin one of Trungpa’s students and she stated that the job of a good teacher was to insult the student and Trungpa would constantly do that harshly. That is to insult the Ego.

    I’ve read ariticle ,I believe some of them are buried on Cuke.com about Trungpa’s reaction to KM after the talk. If you can find them they are pretty funny. KM was a Grouchy Guru.

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  7. bb 11. Apr, 2010 at 1:07 pm #

    jwb,
    I was referring to Dr. R.’s statement on the reason for K.’s edginess in his approach.

    I have no problem at all with, actions of a teacher to be severely harsh or completely loving depending on the need of the student. IMO, that range of interactions constitutes a teacher of greater means.

    I am no expert on K’s youth but the Theosophists divined him as a spiritual savior and groomed him before he rejected them. It was poor speculation on my part, since I have no real knowledge why he was the way he seemed to be. I just find it perplexing that I like his work but find it cold, unlike others. Maybe it is my Germanic side.

    I have seen my own teacher absolutely destroy a student(would of destroyed me) in one minute and be completely peaceful and engaging to me the next. Both instances I took as authentic and true to the situation. It seemed we both just took our interactions with the teacher as just another teaching. That’s why I think generalizing or bringing conventual thinking to these types of relationships doesn’t give a clear picture.

    I kinda saw K. leading the conversation to trap T. or just to places he wanted to talk about. T wanted to interject his understanding but K. wouldn’t pick it up in a meaningful way.

    thanks for the cuke lead, since it is raining and cold today I will see if I can find it.

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  8. J.W. Billings 11. Apr, 2010 at 1:21 pm #

    Got it . Thanks BB.

    You mentioned your teacher. Respectfully , where did you study?

    Yes, I can see K ” trying” trap Trungpa. Trungpa looks a bit hung over or?

    I know there’s been a documentary in production for quite a while on Trungpa. I do hope they finish it.

    I understand KrishnaMurti had a daily rigorous Yoga routine. Do you know anything about it?

    Thank you.

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  9. bb 11. Apr, 2010 at 6:42 pm #

    Been studying with Joshu Sasaki, Roshi since the early 90′s. He’s the last one living of that generation, who came to the US from Japan around the 60′s, eg. Suzuki, Katagiri Think he is 104ish, not much time left though. His main training center is Mt. Baldy, south of L.A.. and I did some time at his Rinzai-Ji zen center in downtown L.A. as well. Old school Japanese Rinzai zen, hard uncompromising amazing crazy experience. He has a lot of centers/oshos around but has not given Inka(dharma transmission) to anyone yet.

    I have met some of Trunpa’s old american students and from what they said I wouldn’t be surprised if he was hung over.

    Know nothing of what types of practice(s) Krishnamurti did, unfortunately.

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  10. dr. robert 12. Apr, 2010 at 10:54 am #

    interesting dialogue!thank you all.
    couple suggestions; regarding K’s daily activities,go to his diaries such as “Krishnamurti’s Notebook” first published in 76′,and expanded in 2004.
    For background on the Theosophical connection,the first of Mary Luytens 2 part biography “Krishnamurti..the Years of Awakening “is a good primer.
    bb, I believe you may overemphasize the possibility that much of K’s work was simply a reaction to Theosophy. I don’t think thats the case at all.His work was certainly on the austere side however, and many people have found it ‘cold’, but that was simply not his concern.
    I personally have found it diamond-like and penetrating in it’s precision,and based in a deep sense of compassion and wisdom.
    The essence is that ‘Truth is a pathless land”.
    And in that regard, a large part of his work was in the importance of de-constuction as a prerequisite for a new type of being..similar in a sense to another teacher who said..”I come not to build the Temple..but to tear it down”.(and yes I know the irony of making that comparison).
    Just fyi..I first ran into K (almost literally) as a kid living in Ojai in 1965..really didn’t know what I was seeing or hearing.I began my study w/K in earnest in 1969..and have continued ever since.I may have seen him some 10-15 times in public talks and have some dear friends who were part of his various “inner circle’ at different times.For me he is foundational..very much a touchstone, and has always presented a challenge both in learning with and , as demonstrated in this comment,in describing that work to others.I guess I still don’t know what I’m seeing or hearing.
    Allan Watts , who had tremendous respect for K,quoted Emerson in his own 1973 biography..
    “these rose under my window make no reference to former roses or to better ones..they are what they are,they exist with God today.There is no time for them..there is simply the rose.
    But man postpones or remembers;he does not live in the present,but with reverted eye laments the past,or,heedless of the riches that surrond him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future.
    He cannot be happyand strong until he too lives with nature in the present,above time”.
    Thats getting close to at least part of what K..grumpy or not, is about.

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  11. bb 13. Apr, 2010 at 8:26 am #

    Dr. R,
    I hope I did not convey that I thought his work was just a reaction to Theosophy. Or that it is simple. If anything is simple in this conversation is my understanding of K. and his work.

    I think the diamond analogy works here beautifully though. The more you investigate the rock, more is revealed and discovered through that. I wont f-it-up any further with my words.

    These individuals are truly a wonder without the need to think.

    Regards~

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  12. Dr. Robert 13. Apr, 2010 at 7:58 pm #

    bb;
    thanks to you, and also JWB, and Jacob for your considered thoughts.

    When finally honored and confronted with these important questions we are prompted and perhaps inspired to go beyond our normal sense of self.

    I personally don’t care who poses those questions..can be K, Trungpa, or the next guy I see on the street.
    Probably will be.

    We are all each others teachers..no Masters,just right time,right place.

    this clip /series between K. and Trungpa was disconcerting to me in some ways.

    So I posted it, and heard some really good perspectives from you guys.
    Made me rethink, and examine.
    can’t ask for more.

    Stoked!

    Thanks again.

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  13. JWBillings 14. Apr, 2010 at 12:53 pm #

    Dr. Roberts,

    Thank you for the post! I have no doubt that KM was a good teacher, grouchy and all.

    bb, sounds like great training. Doing a face to face with a great master such as Joshu Sasaki must of been/be crazy. It’s hard to believe he hasn’t given transmission. It definitely says something because it seems like some Masters give them out like popcorn. I suppose you’ve sat with Leonard Cohen? Great stuff.

    Best to you all!

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  14. bb 16. Apr, 2010 at 7:58 am #

    JWB,
    Yeah, Leonard was a round a lot when I was at both places. I have nothing but respect for him. Very dedicated practitioner, sat zazen through and through, and helpful insights of a senor student. It was a pleasure to practice with him- no attitude from fame or seniority.

    Roshi seems to continue to manifest on ‘higher and higher’ plain(s). Sometimes he seems to just glow. Can’t walk much anymore but at last Dec rohatsu(retrest) he still did 4 sanzens(student interviews) a day w/ 1/12 teish(dharma talk) daily for 7 days straight. Ending on the last day w/ 5 sanzens at 2:30 the next morning. This is w/ 30-ish students and does retreats every month.

    Got no explanation for the guy. Do have some interesting experiences with it all but my words don’t represent them well. alas.

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  15. JWBillings 21. Apr, 2010 at 8:44 am #

    BB,
    Sounds like a great sangha. It’s amazing the amount of energy Zazen can bring you. Roshi is a great example. Thank you for sharing this.

    I know words don’t represent but still would love to hear any interesting stories.

    Best,
    JWB

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  16. Duncan 21. Apr, 2010 at 11:25 pm #

    …..K, “If you come upon a houes that is burning you don’t stop to ask who started this fire or how it start? You put out the fire, Sir. Our houses
    are burnig, so put them out”.
    K change my life thanks to Dr. Robert.

    Reply
  17. JWBillings 04. Aug, 2010 at 5:47 pm #

    These were just posted recently.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/dharmaceutical#p/u/4/B8bpGxePgUw

    Reply
  18. dr. robert 04. Aug, 2010 at 6:01 pm #

    thank you JWB..
    naturally, the beat goes on!
    isn’t it amazing to be able to see these videos…
    chopping wood, hauling water.
    take care!

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  19. bb 06. Aug, 2010 at 6:37 am #

    here are two nice readings from K.

    http://urbangurucafe.com/2010/05/30/84-jiddu-krishnamurti-the-essence-of-freedom-is-seeing/

    http://urbangurucafe.com/2010/07/09/87-jiddu-krishnamurti-choiceless-awareness/#comments

    thanks JWB I look forward to going through those videos.

    Reply

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